sixwordstories | (no subject)

Agreed. Writers don't grow otherwise.

Ahh, yes, but constructive criticism is far different from mocking and bashing.

Once again, agreed. If it was brought up, I would have adressed that.

I figured as much. I just thought it should be said.

Now obviously, most of us don't want to be unfair or antagonizing toward others, but if people have something to say here, they shouldn't automatically be dismissed as being "more of the usual wank". Some seem to think that they're absolutely beyond any feedback.

It was starting to become overdramatic however. There's a difference between criticism and bashing, and some players were being bashed.

Oh I don't think anything justifies something that is basically just a higher form of "flaming" or "trolling" on a fictional board. But I maintain that bashing aside, writers should not associate all criticism with "wank". And some of the worst muses I've come by seem to be doing just that.

Isn't the point of this to have fun? Not be judged by impossible standards? Everything's been done before and yes, clearly not everyone is an excellent writer but why should you have to be in a place like this?

If people are hung up on a specific quality, they should go some place that requires an actual application based on writing merit and use of character to get in.

Contrary to what some might believe, critics do not hold things to impossible standards. Nobody wants to say "you don't have the right to have fun", but in a public place when everyone can read your work, I think they have a right to, if they wish and have something constructive to say, determine whether it's any good or not.

My point is that whatever their motivation for being here, writers should be open to feedback and willing to make their characters and writing as good as possible. That's partly how some can rise to develop merit in the first place.

I totally agree. Like I said above however, there is a difference between constructive criticism and mocking or bashing. Mocking is even far more acceptable that bashing.

There is a certain respect for other people I feel is necessary in any public forum. Despite any objections you might have to the way they present a character.

I believe in constructive criticism (although film critics are allowed and entitled to mock and bash a film in their written or verbal reviews if necessary), and I've seen mocking done well very frequently on here. I didn't approve of the angry bashing and unpleasant swings that were going on here anymore than you did.

Some muses have not only accepted criticism but have even put prompts on their own journals asking others to give their muns feedback about the job they're doing. I just wish more writers were open like that. We don't want SWS to be looked at as harsh and judgmental, but at the same time, let's face it, there are plenty of writers that really need improvement and, I think, need to know. Tactful or good humored if possible, but they do need to know.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you there at all. There are some people who will never be open to criticism, sadly.

Then again, some muses are judged for reasons beyond what you're saying. And some muses are written badly on purpose. Or at least are over-dramatic and embellished on purpose. Sometimes there's a reason the character is being written certain ways.

But yes, I agree, some people shouldn't be writing ever. I'd like to think I'm not one of those people but I'm sure I've made plenty of stupid mistakes (including my massive typos sometimes). At the end of the day, for me, even if a muse is horrible, if the writer's having fun I can't have that much fault with it. I just choose not to interact with or pay attention to that muse.

They should, I certainly agree. Not all criticism is always valid. "Artist intent" and all that, but I think it should all be considered and some of it selected and followed.

Of course, those that most need it often like it the least...

OOC: *cough* Stupid typo. *cough*

Exactly. I obviously support neither excessively harsh statements, nor the belief that all criticism should be bible truth, but I do say people should at least be able to note or take into account what others have to say. Whether or not they follow is up to them, but they should at least give some serious thought to it. In doing so, they can probably separate the valid points from the invalid and know when to take things in humor.

Those that don't do these things tend to instigate these unpleasant confrontations almost as much as the people that criticize do. Before the mods got involved on tonight's case, I remember some muses insisting apologetically that they were only doing what they did as a joke.

Every writer should listen to constructive criticism. It's part of what allows them to grow. In a community like this, there are a few inherent problems with such things.
1) Any plot involves more than one writer who are often not talking about plans. That can often snowball drama in undesirable ways.
2) A single person offering a criticism can turn into a dozen speaking rather nastily.
3) There is a tendency to say 'you're doing it wrong' without an offer of a suggestion of how to do it right.

I think that for many, whether or not they are willing to accept a criticism depends on how it is delivered. Generally speaking, though less evident with this particular muse, I attempt to take things in good humor. Meira is the best example of it. And honestly, for the most part I love muses like the 'bots and yourself. They tend to keep a vital sense of good humor in things that make it easier to handle. But of course there are the days when things get to the point when even they lost a sense of humor about things, and that's dangerous for what it can do to delivery.

Anyway, if it bothers you too much that they don't, I would suggest a version of golden rule I use for various reasons: if you don't like reading it, don't read it.

And if you have any constructive criticisms, I'd be glad to hear them. Preferably in a private message, I'll admit, but none the less.

Edited 2008-06-29 05:56 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear you take such things constructively and are at least willing to pay attention to (not necessarily agree or follow, but note or consider) what other people are saying. I think that's a sure sign that you will continue to grow as a writer.

I try to take criticism in the same spirit I'd like anyone who asks for mine to do so. Which is as a suggestion that may help things improve.

That's not to say that when the comments have a tendency to turn bitter or mean spirited that I don't get a little down. Hard not to when you invest yourself in the characters.

But criticism offered with genuine intent behind it, well, it should at least be considered.

Good. Ideally, that is how criticism should be given and taken. In fact, in a way it is. If you think about it, even the people that do leave bitter or mean spirited comments want things to improve, they're just wrong in the way they go about hoping for it.

All I've really been suggesting in this entire post is just exactly what you said..."it should at least be considered". As long as people can do that, and you seem to be doing so very well, then there's always a chance that it will get better.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree.

I'm here to have fun. Period. I am not writing for publication, nor am I submitting my doctoral thesis. I post here first and foremost for ME, because I enjoy it. I try to write as well as I can, and I enjoy reading good writing. I'm always interested in improving and I strive to do that. If people read what I write and like it, I'm thrilled. And if they don't, oh well. It's not like I'm doing this for a living. It's a hobby, nothing more. I come here to have a good time, not to be judged by a bunch of self-appointed critics.

If you're someone whom I know and trust, whose writing I admire, and I ask for crit? Crit away. Otherwise? I really don't give a shit what you think of my writing. I've had it up to here with people who appoint themselves the arbiters of what's 'good' and what's cliché and what's been done too much. By whose standards? Who decides? And perhaps more importantly, who asked you?

And a word about people whose writing may be judged substandard. There are perhaps people in RP, just as there are in fanfic, who may have more enthusiasm than ability. In many cases they tend to benefit from being mentored by a friend, someone who can help them identify problem areas and improve their writing. I don't think they benefit from unsolicited criticism in a public forum, no matter how politely it's couched. Many times people are posting something they wrote in public for the first time, and something like that can crush their confidence and cause them to give up writing altogether. I've seen it happen too many times. Someone starts out eager and excited, passionate about what they're doing, only to wind up embarrassed and humiliated. They're convinced the worst writer in the history of the world, that they were a fool for even thinking they could do it, and give it up and never try again.

The point I'm making is...RP is something that should be inclusive to everyone, regardless of their skill level. Maybe some people get better and maybe some don't, and some aren't looking to in the first place. They just want to have fun, not attend a writing seminar.

I just think sometimes we take this all way too seriously. It's supposed to be FUN. It doesn't have to be perfect.

I agree wholeheartedly with this comment. And thats all I'll say because everything has already been said here.

Well as you said, I'm sure you aren't asking for my opinion here, but it seems to me that in your zeal to push for a fun and criticism free community, you somewhat appear to be taking yourself too seriously. This is evident in how harshly you speak against dissenters here, even the ones that mock in a tongue in cheek fashion. Not every person that calls someone out on something or jokes about cliches and trends is attempting to start a lecture.

And furthermore, whatever your personal feeling is, I really think you underestimate a lot of writers here, specifically their ability to take criticism constructively and continue writing and enjoying what they do. People are only taking all this too seriously when they let something that happens in a six word story forum affect them so personally, and I think most understand that.

While bitter and mean-spirited bashing is certainly uncalled for, I think some of the problems that arise from criticism can happen partly because of how severely the other muse may overreact and become equally bitter and defensive in their response. When people that share your point of view can take feedback in better spirit, and other people can either speak tactfully or keep silent on the topic, I think things will work out better for all of us.

I don’t usually do this sort of thing, but I feel like you’ve misunderstood or misread the above statement. You seem to assume she can't take feedback in stride. I’ve RP’d with Anson’s player for almost a year now and I know she can definitely take constructive criticism as well as offer it. I agree with her comment and want to add to it.

What I don’t understand, personally, is why criticism has to be forced on someone. Alot of people are like what you said: they want the con crit and can use it. But some people are not looking to improve their writing or are particularly serious about writing (and when I say some people, it’s not a some crazy way of saying ‘me’, I don’t include myself in this group). They may not understand critical feedback and may not take it in the way that was intended. Or even those who want feedback may only want it from people they know and trust and even then perhaps only in a private setting. If you were to offer criticism in that case, it’s their right to respond to your criticism as much as it’s your right to give it, even if they respond in a way you don’t think is cool. It doesn't make them 'overly defensive' anymore that it makes you 'a d-bag'.

I think pretty much everyone here can agree that constructive criticism is a good thing. That’s not what the ‘wank’ was about. The wank happened because someone made a somewhat unhelpful statement relating to certain players in a certain fandom.

Well obviously, I have not been RPing with Anson's player for a year, so I do not have that previous knowledge. And my point here is that this latter group of people you mention, shouldn't look at feedback as a negative entity being "forced" onto them, especially if it's presented in a well-meaning form, that they should know and understand (even if they learn from a closer, more trustworthy source) what it's about, and that they should at least be open to taking it into account instead of suggesting that just because they aren't serious that these 'critics' have no right to say what they think.

And as you said, people feel differently about writing than others do, and people have every right to respond to what others say to them. My argument is not that people don't have a right to defend their points of view or say whatever they want to in return. They don't need to follow or openly appreciate some criticisms, they just need to be able to acknowledge and hopefully think because of them rather than get bent out of shape over them.

There seems to be a great deal of zeal on the part of those who are offering the criticism, as well. Could my writing use improvement? Sure. Could yours? Probably. Could everyone's? I guess so. But it's not my place to say. This isn't 'sixwordcrit', after all.

Maybe it's not the criticism, or the snark or the 'jokes' I have a problem with so much, as the motivations behind them. Maybe I'm just cynical, but I don't believe it's always as innocent as all that. Some people seem awfully eager to advise people of their shortcomings. I've seen writing I thought was subpar and pups I thought were ill-conceived, but I haven't said a word about it in public and I never will. It's not my place. I'm not here to save the world. I don't think my own writing is anywhere near perfect and I don't think I'm qualified to decide what is and isn't good enough, or hip enough, or original enough or relevant enough to be posted here.

Admittedly, my first thought when I hear 'people need to know their writing needs to improve' is...why? Why do they need to know? And why do you (the person providing the unasked-for crit) need to be the one to tell them? It would be wonderful if every writer in the world were David Sedaris or Donna Tartt or _______ (insert your favorite writer here), but they're not, and we're not. It's just fun, that's all it is.

There are certain types of posts that irritate me. I could list ten of them for you right now. But I won't, and I would never dream of posting about it. That's the great thing about sws. If you don't like what you're reading, there's a brand new story just six words away.

I see what you're saying, I just think forcing feedback on people is not the right way to go. Yes, some may respond positively and they may take something away from it. But what about the person who really wasn't looking for it in the first place? Ambushing them with crit is taking their choices away, forcing them to either accept it mutely or respond. And apparently if they respond with anything other than a humble 'thank you for correcting me', they're oversensitive and defensive. I don't enjoy being mocked, tongue-in-cheek or otherwise, and I don't know anyone who does. I don't come here to be mocked. I come here to have a good time.

Perhaps there should be a sixwordcrit community. People who want and are open to feedback could join, as well as those who feel they have constructive and helpful criticism to offer. It's just a suggestion, but it may prove beneficial to everyone.

I just think that feeling that "this isn't my place to say this" is more of a limiting state of mind than anything else. Muses like Colbert, Stark, Xaxa, the robots, and anyone that's ever taken a satirical approach to community writing have thrived and been successful because they do or say whatever they want however absurd or taboo it seems. As for your attitude on being mocked, I just don't think other muses share your attitude about it. Some can genuinely laugh at themselves or take being ribbed in stride. If that's not the case with you, then I stand by the notion, and I'm sorry if this is incorrect or upsetting, that you do take yourself too seriously for someone that wants to have fun. Obviously mocking can go too far and become nasty and unnecessary, but I don't think it should immediately be viewed as such.

As for me, I suggest that people should be given advice in their writing obviously because my views differ from yours on the matter. I believe in constructive intent over a repressed point of view. But nowhere here have I said that I should be the one to tell people what to do. And that's a rather unfair assumption to make. I place myself no higher than any other character or any writer here. I suggest this only as a general statement. If someone has something to say, let them say it. If someone disagrees with someone, let them do so in a reasonable way.

I do not mean to suggest that the "overly sensitive and defensive" are anyone that does not agree with criticism. If you're going to get very angry and bitter and inflammatory in your response, then you're oversensitive. I think criticism actually gives you a wealth of choices except one: "lose your temper". That's what I hope for people to understand. And you're right, perhaps such a community would be good. If it helps writers progress and prevents tonight's incident for reoccurring, then I'm all for it.

Not normally my cup of tea, all this arguing. And I have to say, on the one hand I do agree. I write for Percy in a writing community, and I actively seek out people to read my post and give their opinions.

I am also continually disappointed with the 'oh I liked it! It was good,' response. I then feel the need to press for questions suck as, 'does it flow', 'is it choppy', 'does it cover the topic clearly enough', etc. Admittedly Percy is the only muse I do that for, but he is also the only muse in that writing com.

But, I think what the others are trying to say is this:

sixwordstories isn't where they come to be criticized. In fact, if someone where to pop into one of my stories and go "you need to ____" I would likely just roll my eyes and go on. Why? Because it is six words. It is always a hit and miss here, sometimes you like it...and sometimes you don't.

The point is, fun is fun. And there are quite a few people who are taking the 'fun' out of things. Just because you do not agree with it as being fun? Does not mean that player (who might be as young as 14 or as old as 45) doesn't. There are much nicer ways of provoking change and growth in a player than posting on a live forum saying 'get out of my fandom'.

That would be about the same as me posting, 'fandoms suck' as my personal opinion. I could go on and explain that I do not feel anyone truly represents a character that they did not fully create in their own mind. Or that people misuse sub-context to have main characters turn gay for each other. Or completely rewrite histories. And...etc.

But that would not be very constructive. In fact, that could be down right mean. And we all have to consider this: just because I take criticism well, does not mean they do.

And since we are on the 'let them speak' kick, personally? No one owns a fandom, and no one has the right to say 'get out'. You might not like those 'future kids' or whatever the whole mess was about, but is that really cause for raining on someone else's parade? Fun is Fun, who are we to dictate how you can play with you new toy?

A bit too "Red Flag" for me.

Edited 2008-06-29 16:41 (UTC)

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